Live Dialogue with Helga Zepp-LaRouche

Intensify Efforts for LaRouche’s Oasis Plan to End War in Southwest Asia

This is the edited transcript. Subheads and embedded links have been added. The video of this dialogue is available here.

Harley Schlanger: Hello and welcome to the weekly dialogue with Schiller Institute founder and chairwoman Helga Zepp-LaRouche. I’m Harley Schlanger and I’ll be your host. Today is Wednesday, Dec. 6, 2023. If you have questions or comments, you can send them to questions@schillerinstitute.org.

Helga, with the end of the ceasefire in Gaza, the world is witnessing an escalation of the brutal attack by the Netanyahu regime on the Palestinian civilian population in Gaza, allegedly in an effort to exterminate Hamas. There have been diplomatic initiatives, there have been numerous statements condemning the Israeli operations, but so far, no action has been taken to enforce a ceasefire.

The first question for you is that “in several recent conferences and statements that you’ve made, you’ve emphasized that while necessary, a ceasefire in itself is not a guarantee of peace, and that your late husband’s Oasis Plan is essential for peace and security in Southwest Asia.” Now this question seems to come from someone from the Henry Kissinger school of diplomacy, who asks, “Isn’t it necessary to first reach a political agreement, before trying to solve economic problems?”

Helga Zepp-LaRouche: I think that that is the reason why many of these agreements have not functioned. It is a wrong idea that you first need a political solution before you can start an economic reconstruction program: It has to be the other way around. Look at the situation in Gaza and the West Bank, but especially in Gaza right now? Reports coming in now, by the hour, are the most incredible, heartbreaking—I don’t find words to describe it, because people have been told to go to the southern city of Khan Younis, then that place was bombed. Now, they’re being told to go to Rafah, then that has been bombed. Then they’re being told to go to a tiny spot at the southernmost part of the border with Egypt, where an unbelievably large number of people are supposed to be concentrated—and I think that word has a special meaning—in a tiny place, no water, no medicine, no food, and continuous bombardment.

If one imagines what people are going through, I think that whoever is thinking that you are solving the problem of terrorism this way, better think twice. There is a debate right now in Israel itself, where some people are “proud” to report that if only two civilians are killed for one Hamas, that that would be a good result. That calculation is completely wrong; there is the obvious danger if this continues—you are not even allowed to say the things you are thinking any more because there are laws being made which immediately label you in ways which are not justified at all—for one terrorist, for one Hamas person killed, 10 terrorists will emerge. And so, if the Israelis were able to kill so far 5,000 Hamas (this is a guess, I suppose), then there would be already something like 100,000 new people swearing revenge.

This cycle has to be interrupted! There is no other way the security of Israel can be guaranteed, because the clear danger is that this whole situation expands to Lebanon, Hezbollah; to Syria, where many groups are in increasing tensions—actually more than “tensions,” with American troops; the same in Iraq. The question is: what will happen with Iran if this continues?

We are looking at a complete horror show, a powder keg. Some action needs to be taken immediately. Now, obviously, the most efficient would be if the United States would just say, “We stop all weapons and money to Israel,” and it all would stop. That is the opinion of many people, even coming from Israel, expressing that.

Since that is not very likely, right now, what we have been trying to introduce into this situation is a dynamic which gives hope to the whole region. The Oasis Plan is an economic development perspective, to transform this entire region, which is essentially desert, desert, desert, into an area where, with the help of a system of canals, from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea, from the Red Sea to the Dead Sea, and then large-scale desalination of the salty water for irrigation of agriculture, for the building of infrastructure, even building new cities, industrialization.

This is eminently possible, because you have practically the proposals by China to extend the Belt and Road Initiative into the entire region, to pick up on the Chinese proposal to have a Mideast comprehensive peace conference, in which a settlement of the crisis could take place, with the recognition of a two-state solution; but then, you need economic development. And given the fact that neither the United States, nor Israel, are willing to do this right now, the only way I can imagine that we arrive there, is to get all the neighbors, all the countries in the region, and all the Islamic countries, to demand that.

This is not very far away: Because just today, President Putin of Russia is on a state visit to the United Arab Emirates; he already met with the head of state there. He has a very large delegation, including Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and many others, with him. They’re meeting with a similar delegation from the Emirates, with which they have a huge bilateral trade volume. And then Putin will go to Riyadh to meet with the Prime Minister of Saudi Arabia, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud. The President of Iran will meet with Putin in Moscow on Dec. 7.

Now the significance of that is that all three of these countries will be full members of the BRICS-Plus on January 1—that’s only three weeks away. And given that these countries are all relevant in terms of the oil price and the amount of oil being produced on a daily basis, I think there are many factors which are favorable that such a proposal could be realized.

But what needs to be done, foremost, is you have to have a perspective where all the people, as horrible as the situation is, have a future, have hope. By spreading this idea of having an Oasis Plan, we are trying to put a completely different agenda on the table. I can only ask all of you who are watching this discussion, you should help us: Download our Oasis Plan. Get it to all lawmakers, to all Congressmen, to all members of Parliament, mayors, and other elected officials, other organizations. We have to saturate the whole world with the idea that we need a dramatic change in policy, or this could rapidly develop into World War III, which it very well could.

A Westphalian Approach in Diplomacy

Schlanger: We just got a question in, in the context of your answer, there. Someone asks, “Is there any chance that the Westphalian approach to mutual respect of sovereignty might be effectively honored in the current colonialist mentality that drives Western policies?”

Zepp-LaRouche: Well, I think so, yes. I mean, because the West is really trying to keep the status quo of the old, formerly unipolar world order which already has disintegrated into a multipolarity, and that is not the final stage of this development. I think what we are seeing is a historic development, which probably in history occurred several times: That those people who were the privileged ones of a decaying, collapsing order somehow have a mental block to realizing that they’re losing. Many Western governments did not bring themselves to condemn what is happening right now, despite the fact that it’s so absolutely obvious and horrible. Only a few, like the Prime Minister of Spain and the Prime Minister of Belgium, when they went to the border crossing at Rafah on Nov. 24, they demanded a two-state solution. And Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of Spain even said that Spain may recognize the Palestinian state unilaterally if there is not an appropriate action coming from the rest of the European leaders.

The vast majority of the establishment is incapable of seeing that it is their own actions that are causing their very demise. I think what is unfolding now in Gaza will discredit the West in ways that cannot be remedied. Because if you allow something like this to happen, it will be burned into the memory of so many people around the world, and in my view, it will absolutely increase the determination by the countries of the Global South to develop their own economic system, to end colonialism once and for all. Given the fact that the trans-Atlantic financial system is in a real crisis, basically sitting there as a powder keg ready to explode, I don’t think the West is in such a strong position to prevent the desire of the developing countries to form a new system which is to their benefit.

But it’s highly dangerous, you know, because the only thing which could happen is that it completely blows up, and that could lead to the end of civilization. I don’t think there is any way this present system of suppression of the aspirations of the Global South can last.

Implications of Interventionist Wars

Schlanger: On the relationship between the continuation of war, but at the same time, the lack of money to fund it, which is hitting a number of countries, including the United States, we have a question: Someone wrote in about Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer’s dog-and-pony show hearings; that he was going to have a hearing yesterday, bringing in Ukrainian President Zelensky to make a personal, powerful appeal for more money from the Congress, but Zelensky didn’t show up. So, the question is: “Given the growing opposition in Congress to Biden’s supplemental budget bill of $106 billion for Ukraine and Israel, what are the implications for the ongoing war? What will happen if the U.S. doesn’t send more money to Ukraine?”

Zepp-LaRouche: There is already a very far-reaching recognition that Ukraine has lost the war, and that’s a fact. The famous “counteroffensive” did not succeed at all. All the weapons that were sent led only to an unbelievable carnage: destruction of the Ukrainian economy, and there is right now a recognition that something else has to come and that you need to somehow get out of this, with somehow a face-saving operation.

There are some people, complete warhawks, who want to continue this, disregarding what will be the effect on the Ukrainian population, which is bleeding to death! I don’t have the latest insight on why Zelensky made this decision not to go—but there is massive opposition from inside Ukraine against him for continuing, given the way the war has gone. Some of his closest advisors no longer believe that this can be won.

So, I think that the sooner the idea of negotiations and ending this horrible war, with a peace agreement which would take care of the interest of Russia and Ukraine, which is what Putin had demanded on Dec. 17, 2021—the better. On that date, Putin made an ultimatum—he said to NATO and to the United States that they should give legally binding security guarantees, and then this whole thing would not have happened! We are now at a point where the Ukraine war is coming to an end, the people are simply not there any longer. A big factor is the approaching election campaign in the United States. Many elected officials really know that the war is not popular with the electorate in the United States.

So hopefully, there are some people inside the United States establishment who will face reality. U.S. military policy has not been successful since Vietnam! Look at all these wars: the Vietnam War was lost; Afghanistan was lost; Iraq, Libya, Syria—an endless line of failed efforts to impose policies which were always detrimental to the interest of the relevant country. The sooner this idea of interventionist wars stops, the better.

For example, take Afghanistan: If only 3% of the $2.3 trillion which the United States spent in the 20 years the U.S. and NATO were in Afghanistan, if only 3% would have been spent on an annual basis, there are estimates that the country would be a flowering garden and there would be industry and infrastructure. All this money for these endless wars for a complete destruction of the physical economy. All that money wasted. Going into the pockets of the speculators and the military-industrial complex, naturally, but otherwise, from the standpoint of the general public, wasted. If that money would have gone into schools, into health systems, into infrastructure, everybody would be served so much better! We need a mobilization demanding exactly that, and it is only by doing that, that such a shift can occur.

Debate On Coal and Nuclear Energy at COP28

Schlanger: You’re listening to Helga Zepp-LaRouche, the founder and chairwoman of the Schiller Institute, who’s also very actively involved in pulling together the International Peace Coalition. Posted on our website is information on how you can participate.

Helga, we have some questions related to the COP28 conference. Someone wrote in and said, “Thank you for your constant exposure of the green agenda, and that it’s a depopulation agenda. The fight is going on in the COP28 conference over fossil fuels. What do you think is the significance of India’s refusal to agree on reducing the use of coal? Does that have a broader impact on the overall green agenda?”

Zepp-LaRouche: There has been a tremendous push to go for nuclear energy which is exactly what needs to be done. There is a whole group of countries now forming a nuclear club with the idea of building up nuclear energy as quickly as possible. But there will be a period, a gap, because you cannot build nuclear plants overnight. It takes years. And there is now a very promising—the first fourth-generation reactor, which China is going to put online. So, there are huge developments in the field of nuclear energy and that is very, very promising.

But you do need coal for the interim period, and I think the fact that India says this, will have a very important impact on all the other countries of the Global South.

I think this COP28 summit was really incredibly instructive. Not only did the United Arab Emirates’ leading organizer and host of the summit say they have no intention to leave fossil fuels, which caused a huge outcry, but also the fraudulent character of the whole thing became clear. Almost 100,000 people flew into Dubai. Can you imagine all the CO₂ emissions from all those planes? And what was accomplished? Actually, very little.

And I must say, whenever people say something right, one should praise them. Greta Thunberg is now being slaughtered by the international media for bringing up the fate of the Palestinian people. I think this is very important. Once people recognize that something is going awfully wrong, and have the courage to say it, that is probably one of the better outcomes of this COP28 summit.

Germany’s Green Economy in Free Fall

Schlanger: Speaking of people doing things wrong, there’s another question on the general fossil fuel fight. Someone wrote in, “What is going on in Europe in the EU, with the disagreements over the green agenda? And what about the situation in Germany? Will there be energy shortages this winter? Is there any way the Germans can somehow revive the flow of gas and oil from Russia?”

Zepp-LaRouche: The German economy right now is in a free fall, and the media are not reporting it as a comprehensive picture, but every day, you find in the German media a little statement from this CEO, or that head of an association, saying “my sector is collapsing....” If one puts this together, Germany is absolutely showing the bottom falling out. Many firms say they have to have layoffs or invest in other countries. There is economic warfare against Germany from the United States which is luring those firms that can no longer afford the high energy prices in Germany, to reinvest in the United States, with the Inflation Reduction Act providing them certain privileges. So, this is not the act of a friend, this is the act of an enemy. And given the fact that the Nord Stream sabotage is still the big question to be investigated, Seymour Hersh’s allegations have not really been countered.

So, I think it is really the time for Germany to draw the conclusions: Do we want to let our entire economy, everything that was built in the postwar period, in generations of work, do we let that disintegrate, collapse, be taken apart? This is a crisis moment for Germany, as one hasn’t seen in our economy since the end of World War II!

Now, interestingly, Putin some days ago basically said that he regrets that the relationship between Russia and Germany has gone to such a sour point. And if Germany would make up their mind, there would be a way of resuming relations—these are not exactly his words, but the general meaning. I think that that is, indeed, what Germany should do: We should just go again and say we need the cheap Russian gas, in particular. That would be the reasonable thing to do.

So, I think this coming winter will decide. It started very cold—it all depends. If the winter gets very harsh, and a lot of energy consumption will be needed, I think we may come to an absolute crisis point. Because also all the other economic parameters are looking absolutely horrible. So, I think Germany will be confronted with the choice of either collapsing, under the operations of an ally, our so-called best ally, the United States; or, we think in terms of our own population and reopen the gas deliveries from Russia.

Schlanger: Helga, I looked out the window today and the skies are gray. There’s been no Sun in about three weeks here in Berlin, and all the solar panels are covered with snow. I think that tells you something about the natural law asserting itself against the idiocy of the greens.

Evoking the Love of Humanity

I have one more question for you, which comes from someone who says they’re very hopeful about the possibility that religion could be a factor in a ceasefire and peace. They reference that Sergey Lavrov has talked about “post-Christian culture” in the West, and this person writes: “Is it possible that about Christmastime, this offers a chance to recognize the significance of love for our fellow-man as the basis for peace?”

Zepp-LaRouche: I can only say that all people of goodwill are called upon to try to evoke that sentiment in their and our fellow-citizens. Because I think that, apart from the terrible war in Ukraine, and the horrible situation in the Middle East, we have a real crisis of Western culture. I think we are looking at a complete decadent collapse. It’s hard to say if one should compare it with the end of the Roman Empire, or the 14th Century or other periods of total collapse and decadence of the elites. We need to find in ourselves that which is human in us, and we have to build on that and create hope. The human species right now is undergoing such a profound crisis, and I think religious leaders, but also people who are truly religious people, should use this holiday season—Christmas and the other holidays—to evoke the love for humanity and try to get back to a human society.

If we get through this crisis, I think we will go through a period of maybe a year, one and a half years, two years, this is a period when I think a lot of processes will come to their point of exhaustion, a breaking point, a transition point. We have to manage to somehow get enough people with the idea that there is a solution, that the West should stop being arrogant, thinking they can continue the colonialist order, which really is at the bottom of all of this.

We should stop this, I would say, Euro-centric arrogance, which includes the United States—you can call it “America-centric arrogance, Euro-centric arrogance”—thinking that we are something better and that the countries of the Global South, of Asia, Africa, and Latin America, are somehow inferior. Maybe if you ask people, they would not think that they are racist. But if you look at their behavior in terms of the kinds of institutions they want to perpetuate, which would perpetuate the lack of development of the South, you have to come to the conclusion that it is this Euro-centric racist attitude which is behind a lot of what’s going on.

This is a time now to get rid of that, to have a catharsis, and to remind ourselves of the true tradition of America, which is the American Revolution, the Founding Fathers, what Benjamin Franklin was saying, what John Quincy Adams was saying; or in Europe, the Italian renaissance, the Andalusian renaissance, the French polytechnique, the German Classical period, the image of man which is associated with Schiller, with Beethoven, with the Ninth Symphony, which was Beethoven’s composition of Schiller’s poem Ode to Joy, in which the idea is that “all men become brethren”!

Now, I think that that is not a utopia. I think that that is the absolute precondition for civilization to survive. And I think Christmas and this period is a period when all people of goodwill, religious or not religious, must work together to evoke that, if we want to come out of this crisis.

Schlanger: I have an idea for a Christmas present: Our listeners can go to The LaRouche Organization website, download the Oasis Plan pamphlet, and get that around the Christmas tree, and get people reading and discussing it. This is what Helga’s been discussing today, and that is the basis for a lasting peace, which is the spirit of Christmas and all of the religions that have celebrations this time of year.

Euro-Centric Arrogance, the Basis for Geopolitics

So, Helga, here’s the last question for you: “What you’re describing as ‘Euro-centric arrogance,’ is that the essence or the basis for geopolitics?”

Zepp-LaRouche: Yes! It’s the idea—it really started way back in 1500 when the idea of colonialism began, and you have to look at the 600 years following that period. But, in the recent period, I think it was associated with the Wolfowitz Doctrine: This was when the Soviet Union disintegrated, and there was the basis for peace. You could have built a peace order for the 21st Century then, which we attempted by proposing the Eurasian Land-Bridge.

But at that time you had Paul Wolfowitz, and Richard Perle and various other neocons, who defined the idea that with communism being defeated (so they said, although that was a wrong conception, to think that they were “victorious” over communism), but they came up with the idea that the United States should never allow any group of nations to surpass them economically, militarily, or culturally, and that that was really a lot of what went wrong, because what the United States should have done, was to go back to the peace policy of John Quincy Adams, or John F. Kennedy, and say: We will work with an alliance, a partnership of countries around the world and cooperate. And I think that that idea to replace confrontation with the aim to keep the unipolar world, which has long since gone, anyway, and change that into a mode of cooperation that is the most urgent, today, to do.

Schlanger: Well, Helga, thank you for joining us today, and with all good luck in everything else, we’ll see you again next week.

Zepp-LaRouche: Yes. And join the International Peace Coalition!